Talk:History of Slovakia

RfC: Nitra

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The article contains the following text under the subtitle "Rise of Slavic polities": "Some historians say that Pribina's original seat was identical with Nitra in present-day Slovakia, from where he was expelled by Mojmir I around 833. .... Other historians write that Pribina's Nitrava cannot be identified with Nitra." The two sentences are based on Berend, Nora; Urbańczyk, Przemysław; Wiszewski, Przemysław (2013). Central Europe in the High Middle Ages: Bohemia, Hungary and Poland, c. 900-c. 1300. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-78156-5. which contains, on pages 56-57, the following: "According to some, Pribina's seat had been previously in Nitra (today in Slovakia), until 833 when the Moravian ruler Mojmír (Moimír, before 833-46) expelled him and conquered his lands, but others dispute this and suggest another Pannonian area as Privina's previous seat." According to Ditinili, the latter theory is marginal and should not be mentioned in the article. Could the theory which says that "Pribina's Nitrava cannot be identified with Nitra" be mentioned in the article or it should be deleted? Thank you for your comments. Borsoka (talk) 17:14, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion, we should follow recommendation "While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity." Identification of medieval Nitra from the times of Pribina or Great Moravia with the present-day Nitra is simply supported by the overwhelming majority of historians and fully supported by archeological research. It should be clear for any reader which theory is mainstream and what is an alternative, marginal opinion.Ditinili (talk) 17:46, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, Bela Miklos Szoke (he is the leading archaeologist at the Mosapurc excavations) disputes that Pribina's (and Wiching's) seat was situated in Nitra.[1] Fakirbakir (talk) 20:30, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

It could be interesting, but it changes nothing on the fact that straightforward identification of Nitra remains non-problematic for the overwhelming majority of historians who deal with the history of the Great Moravia and it is supported also by the research on the place. Short overview of the archeological research in Nitra in English: Archaelogical sites of Nitra.Ditinili (talk) 04:32, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Historical Nitra was in present-day Slovakia. It is a generaly accepted and preferred opinion. 195.91.8.94 (talk) 14:25, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Given the ostensible reliability of at least one of the opponents of the most common hypothesis, we probably should mention the alternative, but clearly indicate that it's a minority viewpoint. Hiding the fact that there is reasonable doubt in the minds of some subject-matter experts would do a disservice to our readers. In archaeology, it's actually fairly often the case that mainstream assumptions about the identification of specific digs with certain historically attested places turn out to be mistaken. This has, for example, happened multiple times with proposed locations of Camelot, in my adult lifetime. Anyway, the extant wording borders on WP:WEASEL-wording. While the original source was itself weasely, we don't have to repeat its poor use of vague "some [like who?] say this, others [such as?] say that" presentation. It would be better to simply state outright that the predominant theory is this one, and cite Wiszewski for it as well as some other reliable source indicating this is the most accepted (or only presented) view, and that an alternative, minority hypothesis is that other one, and cite both Wiszewski (as the source that it's a minority viewpoint) and Szoke (for the details of what the viewpoint is and who propounds it). Unless it wanders into WP:FRINGE territory, more information is generally better than less, especially when avoiding mention of something may raise WP:NPOV concerns.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  05:42, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Nobody speaks here about hiding the fact that there are other opinions. However, I fully agree that it must be clear what is the most accepted view and what is hypothesis of small group of historians to prevent "false balance".Ditinili (talk) 06:35, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

The prevailing opinion is identification of Pribina's Nitra (Nitrawa) with Nitra. I agree with Borsoka that we can mention alternative hypothesis, but also with SMcCandlish that we don't have to repeat WP:WEASEL-wording of the original source.178.41.3.118 (talk) 05:10, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dubious statements

(1) According to Slovak historian Jan Steinhübel, the local Slavs remained neutral during the conflicts between the Longobards and Gepids, instead they invaded the Byzantine Empire. When invading the Byzantine Empire, the local Slavs had to cross the territories of the Longobards and/or the Gepids. What is the basis of Steinhübel's theory? Borsoka (talk) 03:20, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

(2) The article says that the Slavs living to the south of the line Devín-Nitra-Levice-Želovce-Košice-Šebastovce adopted Avar burial rites, jewellery and fashion. How do we know that they were Slavs if they cannot be distingushed from the Avars? Borsoka (talk) 03:20, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

(3) The article says that the Slavs living to the north of the line Devín-Nitra-Levice-Želovce-Košice-Šebastovce preserved their burial rite, but their number increased also because immigration of Slavs from the south. Does this statement means that there were also inhumation cemeteries to the north of the line? Borsoka (talk) 03:20, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

(1) If we look on your comment from the log: "Did they have an agreement with the warring Germans who let them cross their lands?" then the answer is that such military campaign really required permission of the Gepids. It is not something strange, because for all of them, the Byzantine Empire was much more attractive target. Such collaboration is not so shocking, for example it is documented that the Gepids helped the Slavs also to cross the Danube (for some payment).[2] Of course, again it is not "Steinhubel" theory, this is supported e.g. also by Třeštík (Vznik Velke Moravy/Foundation of the Great Moravia), both of them speaking about common military leadership necessary to organise such campaigns against Byzantines (and to make alliances with others).

Do we know that Slavs from the lands now forming Slovakia invaded the Byzantine Empire? What is the source of this scholarly POV? Borsoka (talk) 04:58, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

...and your sources claiming the opposite are: ...? (Sorry, I will not spend more time with discussion like "my personal opinion is...")Ditinili (talk) 05:10, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I must have misunderstood something. I thought that the creator of the above interesting theory about the Slavs freely invading the Byzantine Empire across the territory where the Gepids and Longobards were waging war against each other is based on some evidence. If it is not based on evidence, but only a scholarly assumption, we should clearly state it in the article. Borsoka (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Boroska, if you are afraid that some opinions are baseless, then the answer is no, they are not. The authors who say that the attacks came also from the north of the Panonian basin (not only e.g. from the Lower Danube) came to this conclusion based on analysis like where these attacks came from, where they crossed Danube, location of the neighbours of these Slavs, etc. Of course, your role is not to "validate" their opinion and my duty is not to analyse this topic into details with you. My duty is to only to properly source these opinions and I will simply add more authors and maybe a short summary.Ditinili (talk) 01:41, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

OK. I understand that the authors concluded that the Slavs from the Northern Carpathians freely crossed the territory of the warring Gepids and Longobards (but they, of course, remained independent of the Longobards), but it takes some time that their argumentation can be understood. Borsoka (talk) 02:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Your personal opinions, none sources, I will simply extend section for other authors.--Ditinili (talk) 04:51, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

(2) The question is not "were Slavs there", but "can we define clear and reliable criteria to distinguish between the Slavs and the Avars for the particular grave in the area". The material culture has features of both and it is influenced by fashion trends, so if e.g. typical Slavic weapons as Slavic axes are found together with the "Avar" jewellry, etc.Ditinili (talk) 04:46, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I think this should be clarified in the article ("Slavic axes" and "Avar artefacts"). Borsoka (talk) 04:58, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, then the "dubious tag" is inappropriate and you only need further clarification.

Ok. I understand that we will read about Slavic axes and Avar broches in the article. It will be fascinating: "it is well-known by mainstream historians that the Slavs never give up their axes and the Avars never used axes, but lived side by side in the same villages." Borsoka (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Your personal opinion and a trial for ironic speech cannot compensate the fact that you did not provide any source. Do you have any source or not?Ditinili (talk) 01:41, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, my personal opinion is not important. Nevertheless, reading of Slavs and Avars living in the same villages and using the same cemeteries who used different weapons will be fascinating. Borsoka (talk) 02:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Stop your own research, if you are not able to provide any sources and you rely only your own opinions and "expertise". Ditinili (talk) 04:51, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

(3) Here I am not sure, what do you want to prove. Can you provide some scholarly source claiming the opposite to make clear what is the problem to be discussed (not your own deductions, conclusions, etc)? Thx. Ditinili (talk) 04:46, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

No, I do not want to dicusse it. I'd like to understand it, because for the time being it is an idle statement. 04:58, 2 June 2015 (UTC)Borsoka (talk)

Ok, if you don't have any scholarly source and you do not want to discusse it, than the "dubiouss tag" is in this case also inappropriate and we can chat about the topic later.Ditinili (talk) 05:10, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

No, you misunderstand. For the time being, we are not in the position to decide that it is a relevant information or not. Borsoka (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I fully agree, you are not in the position to decide that it is a relevant information or not. However, it is is properly sourced and again you have not provided any source to support your opinion that it is "dubious".Ditinili (talk) 01:41, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

OK. We will read idle statements about Slavs who practised inhumation in the land to the south and cremation in the territories to then north of a line, but whose movements across that line can be archaeologically proved. Maybe the Slavs axes prove those movements, because they did not give up using their weapons, but they easily adopted burial rites. Is there a difference between the axes used by Slavs who inhumated their dead and axes who cremated them? Borsoka (talk) 02:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Boroska, stop your own research, desinterpretations and ironic comments. You do not have any sources.Ditinili (talk) 04:51, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Please read the above conversation. All my statements are based on your interpretation of the reliable sources that you cited. You say that according to those reliable sources: (1) There is a line separating the southern and northern regions, because the Slavs did not give up their axes, but easily adopted inhumation rite in the south, but they continued cremating their dead in the north; (2) Nevertheless, the Slavs freely moved across that separating line (but we do not know the basis of this assumption); (3) The Slavs also freely invaded the Byzantine Empire across the territory of the Gepids and Longobards who were waging war against each other, but the Slavs remained neutral in the wars of the Gepids and Longobards. Did I change anything when summarizing these fascinating theories? Borsoka (talk) 05:29, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

In other words, you are shocked by:

(1) the existence of common Slav-Avar material culture

(2) the movement of Slavs to safer northern areas

(3) the collaboration between Slavs and Gepids, from the Slavic side not aimed against the Longobards, but the Byzantines

This is high level summary, without arguing about details. No comment.Ditinili (talk) 06:28, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

You are wrong again. No, I have not been shocked. (1) I know that you do not write about "assemblages which consist of X, Y and Z artifacts and which are attributed by AB to peoples 1 and 2", but about "common Slav-Avar material culture" (=Slavic axes and Avar artefacts). (2) I know that in your world only Slavs could move from the dangerous south to the north, because other peoples (Gepids, Avars, etc) enjoyed peril. (3) If you read the article, you would realize that it was me who included Procopius's reference to the collaboration of an exiled Longobard prince with the Slavs (the Longobard prince sought refugee among the Gepids). And I know that in your world those Slavs must have been mustered in the lands now forming Slovakia and scholars who deny this conclusion only represent a minority view. Borsoka (talk) 11:59, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what "my word" should be. However, because you were not able to provide any sources to support your opinion until now, I am removing tags. Ditinili (talk) 12:30, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Please try to read some books of archaeology written in the 21st century. Of course, the statements of "common Slavic-Avar culture" can be mentioned, but we should clarify that nobody excavated people who speak Slavic or Avar, but only objects which are attributed to Slavs or Avars or Gepids, and this attribution is only a theory. Borsoka (talk) 12:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Again, only general statements without any sources questioning concrete sentences.Ditinili (talk) 13:03, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Prevailing opinion of Nitra and location of Great Moravia

Of course, we can say that there is a "prevailing opinion" if we can verify our statement. Taking into account WP:Summary style, we should not list all arguments of the parties who are debating the location of "Great Moravia", especially if we do not need to mention that debate in this article (there is a separate article dedicated to "Great Moravia"). Nobody denies that a part of present-day Slovakia was annexed by that polity in the 9th century. Only the date of occupation is debated: scholars who identify Nitrava of the three late version of the 11 existing copies of the Conversio with Nitra say that Nitra was occupied in the 830s, other scholars (who prefer the nearly contemporaneous Archbishop Theotmar's testimony) say that Nitra was only occupied in the 870s. Borsoka (talk) 05:52, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue.

"Sometimes editors will insist on citations for material simply because they dislike it or prefer some other material, not because the material in any way needs verification. (...) while there are cases where this kind of pedantic insistence is useful and necessary, often it is simply disruptive, and can be countered simply by pointing out that there is no need to verify statements that are patently obvious"

Also Boba, Bowlus and Edgers are aware that they theories are minor, that's why they try to "reconsider", "rewrite", etc.

Detailed arguments - they were listed by User:Fakirbakir not me, I only added counter arguments. It is not acceptable to intentionally create a false balance and not only to present prevailing and minor theories as equal, but detailed arguments are provided only for a minor view. This clearly violates neutrality and makes a false impression about the scientific ground of both theories.

The source about the occupation of Nitra only "in 870" is well known and as many other historical sources should be analysed critically not literally. The fact is that the most of the historians claims the opposite and they do not agree with such theory. Regardless of your or my opinion this is the minor view. More about how it is possible that Franish bishops made such mistake in Třeštík (2001), p. 116.--Ditinili (talk) 07:14, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Why do you have to emphasize all the time that "this is the major opinion" and "that is the minor opinion"?? This is nonsense. Let the reader decide which theory fits better with the "evidence" we have.... I am telling you historians may differ on the "facts" (historical theories are not facts). Fakirbakir (talk) 11:59, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I do it, because it is recommended by wikipedia. Read "equal validity" can create a false balance.Ditinili (talk) 12:05, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

So, if my understanding is correct, it is only an assumption that there is a "prevailing opinion". Who made this assumption? Borsoka (talk) 08:06, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

It is not an "assumption". It is patently obvious fact that the most of publications about the Great Moravia even do not bother to reference this alternative theory. Can we agree on that or not?

However, you came with articifical, baseless and fringe theory that these two "hypothesis" are somehow equal and their level acceptance is equal (this is obviously incorrect believe and it the case that you are aware of it and push this desinterpretation, we are speaking about quite unethical manipulation from your side). Then, you have tried to support your opinion by one vague sentence in the book which is not detaily specialized in the topic, but as other editors properly noticed in RfC requested by you (!), we can hardly rely on such vague statements and we should not repeat them. In the meantime, you have refused to provide references to the authors who support this "equaly accepted" theory, who can be obviously (as you know) counted on one hand. In the same time we can really speak about about dozens other authors and since 1970 (Boba) hunderds of publications from renomed authors claiming oposite. More, two of three authors who are presented now as representatives of this theory belong to marginal historical view.Ditinili (talk) 08:41, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Please remember that the book published by Cambridge University Press does not make such a distinction ("prevailing" and "other" opinion). Maybe CUP cannot make distinction between the two theories. I know that you think that your knowledge of books published in Slovakia convinced you that there is a prevailing opinion, but CUP does not support your experience. Of course, if this distinction can be verified, we should mention it. Borsoka (talk) 09:15, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

This was already rejected and there is an agreement that this publication uses weasel wording which should not be repeated here. More, it is large misunderstanding or intentional lie that this CUP publication "contradicts my opinion". We can easily cite it again to demonstrate that it simply does not directly state that the theories are equivalent and this statement is only your own conclusion.

Since it is patently obvious that the most of the authors who research the GM demonstrably totally ignores this "equivalent" theory, I have to ask you who are those mysterious historians and archaeologist who denies association of Nitrava and Nitra to such extent that it should degrade this widely recognized and accepted opinion only to "one of many equivalent hypothesis"? For now, it is your baseless speculation.

Of course, I can very easily demonstrate that the most of recognized experts on the topic not only reject this theory but it is not worth of comment in their publication as an alternative. It has nothing with my own research, I can do it very transparently and whoever can verify it. Ditinili (talk) 11:40, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Please read the text I suggest before commenting it: there are no weasel words. If your claim can easily be demonstrated, please do not refrain from verifying it. Please read the references in the relevant part of the article, you can easily find scholars who say that Nitrava and Nitra are not identical, because a nearly contemporaneous source contradicts this identification and no archaeological evidence substantiates it either. Borsoka (talk) 11:50, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

If the authors referenced in the article are all what you can show us (in the case of Boba and Bowlus they authors with more than questionable acceptance) than you are really very far from making "any revolution" and proving that the "traditional view" on the location of Nitrava is not prevailing (= patently obvious fact). Ditinili (talk) 12:12, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

I fully agree with you: as soon as you can verify that there is a prevailing opinion, we should mention it in this article. However, if my understanding is correct, it cannot be so easily demonstrated as you stated above. If you are well aware the fact that CUP does not make a distinction between the two theories ([3]), why do you oppose this neutral presentation? Or you may not know that Cambridge University Press is more frequently cited in WP than results of WP-editors' own research as per WP:NOR. You can suggest that this rule should be changed if you think that the results of your own research about the value of the two theories should be presented in this article. I strongly suggest that you should read books published outside Slovakia in the 21st century about the 9th-century history of Central Europe, because you will be surprised: Bowlus and Boba are always cited. Borsoka (talk) 12:34, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for repetition: "neutral presentation" from CUP demonstrably uses weasel wording, it is a bad basis for any discussion and useless for further discussion. This is the problem of the particular sentence and it means that it's value is limited (of course, the source is otherwise reliable). It does not make any distinctions not because they are not any differences, but because the authors simply did not analyse the problem, they did not reference any historians and did not provide any reference. It is nothing more than one vague sentence from the book primarily focused on a different topic.

The question is what exactly do you want to demonstrate. If you want to demonstrate that the most of the experts on the GM simply ignore this theory and even do not mention it then yes, it can be easily demonstrated. I already proposed to do it and if you can confirm that you will be satisfied with this solution I will do it. Another solution is to propose to open RfC with a question "is the association of Nitrava with Nitra the prevailing opinion among historians who research the era of the Great Moravia?" Of course, we know about alternative views.

If you speak about WP:NOR than I have to say that it is YOUR original research that both theories have the same level of the acceptance (what is an absolute non-sense). This your opinion is currently more or less baseless, because it is based exclusively on one vague sentence and three historians and two of them are let's say controversial.

Of course, it has nothing with Slovak POVs, etc.Ditinili (talk) 13:27, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Please remember that I did provide a reference to a peer reviewed work (published by Cambridge University Press) which does not make a difference between the two theories, consequently the text I suggested cannot qualify as original research. You may misunderstand the concept of WP:NOR. According to this policy, if an editor verified his/her view with a reference to a peer reviewed book, he/she is not required to provide further references. For the time being, it is you who cannot verify a claim. Consequently, till you do not provide a reference to substantiate your claim (namely, that there is a prevailing opinion among historians), I will delete all reference to this "prevailing opinion". Sorry, I think there is no point in continuing our conversation till you do not provide a proper reference. Borsoka (talk) 14:41, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Boroska, your publication does not contain any statement that the theories are equal. It contain only one vague statement that other theories exist. The opinion that they are equal contradicts the facts that the most of authors totally ignores it. This is something which should be definitely carefully evaluated and elaborated instead of pushing views which can be only hardly to be accepted. That's all. Ditinili (talk) 15:38, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Just for the record, I copy here the relevant text from the book: "According to some, Pribina's seat had been previously in Nitra (today in Slovakia), until 833 when the Moravian ruler Mojmír (Moimír, before 833-46) expelled him and conquered his lands, but others dispute this and suggest another Pannonian area as Privina's previous seat." (Berend, Nora; Urbańczyk, Przemysław; Wiszewski, Przemysław (2013). Central Europe in the High Middle Ages: Bohemia, Hungary and Poland, c. 900-c. 1300. Cambridge University Press. pp. 56–57. ISBN 978-0-521-78156-5.). Borsoka (talk) 15:48, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much. This confirmed my statement that the authors of this publication did not wrote that both theories are equally accepted among scholars. They only wrote that different theories exist, nothing more or less. Then, this vague sentence was used by you to make a bombastic conclusion about equality - not explicitly written by the authors of the publication. Unfortunately, the sentence is so vague that Berend, Urbańczyk and Wiszewski did not bother to wrote who are the authors of these theories and did not provide any references to their works. However, is seems to be a reference to some southern theory. There is not any widely accepted theory which places Mojmir to Moravia and Pribina to Pannonia before his exile.

Instead of relying on one vague sentence, I propose to take seriously the fact that the most of authors ignore this alternative theory about Nitrava. It is on you, if you want to be collaborative or to push unsustainable opinion about equality. And maybe to take into account that because they ignore it or reject particular statements, they have no reason to further explain that these views are minor. I will return to this discussion in 2 weeks, because my university library is currently closed as I found today.Ditinili (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I do not understand with whom you are arguing. My statement above was the following: "I did provide a reference to a peer reviewed work (published by Cambridge University Press) which does not make a difference between the two theories, consequently the text I suggested cannot qualify as original research". Borsoka (talk) 23:43, 19 July 2015 (UTC)